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Forum: Wheels & Tires

Rims, hubs, spokes, problems, punctures, repairs

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Thread: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy by David Cambon on Sat 15 Sep 2012 19:11 (US/Pacific)

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#51: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By iain c on Wed 19 Sep 2012 11:24 Edit Delete in reply to #50     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
T for Trekking versus M for mountain biking?

      
#52: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Wed 19 Sep 2012 11:29 Edit Delete in reply to #51     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Or:

T=Terror
M=Yummy!

There's no indication from Shimano that the "Trekking" hub is the same as the old Mountain Bike hub, even though they look the same.

      
#53: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By iain c on Wed 19 Sep 2012 11:44 Edit Delete in reply to #52     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
I doubt they would compromise the XT brand by using inferior materials for a Trekking hub. I think they have just stopped branding the non disc XT hub as an "M" because only low end MTBs are non disc these days.

      
#54: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Wed 19 Sep 2012 12:44 Edit Delete in reply to #49     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Curious that the Europeans seem to service the needs of cycle tourists better than the US/Canada. Thank goodness for reliable internet shops like Wiggle, ChainReaction and XXCycle"

I'd been thinking something similar Victor. Possibly to do with the longer history of cycle-tourism?
And U.S. retailing is (generally speaking) very focussed on its domestic market and doesn't look outward nearly so much as the UK and Europe.
Another question I am slightly curious about is why there aren't Asian-based online retailers to rival Wiggle, Chain Reaction et al.
Retail epicentres like Singapore and Hong Kong are ideally placed.
Just this XT hub question for example. They are made in Malaysia. Weird that we can buy them from the UK cheaper than anywhere in Oz. Similarly with Schwalbe tyres. They are made in Indonesia but cheaper to buy from Europe.
May be there are good online retail sources in S.E. Asia I am just not aware of.

      
#55: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By George White on Wed 19 Sep 2012 14:46 Edit Delete in reply to #52     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Hi David,

It's actually M for disk brake (M785) and T for rim brake (T780), see Shimano installation/maintenance Sheet
CRC Deore XT T780 front hub

Then there are the Deore M590 hubs which are for rim brakes. Shimano are not very consistent!
CRC Deore M590 Front hub
CRC Deore M590 Rear hub

All available in 32 and 36 hole.

Neither Wiggle nor CRC have LX series hubs in stock.

George

      
#56: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Bill Williams on Wed 19 Sep 2012 16:17 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
David,
Interesting topic - which makes me question my recent purchase of a Lynskey Backroad Touring bicycle and the hubs I have on that bike. The bike has 135mm rear dropout spacing. I have Chris King disc specific hubs on it. The disc brakes are Avid BB7 model brakes. You commented that a hub designed for disc brakes is a compromise (in strength?) due to the design to accommodate the disc brakes.
I have only had this bike for ten or twelve days with only 300 miles on it as I work the kinks out of a new bike and break in the Brooks saddle. I currently have Velocity Arrowhead rims, 36 spoke - DT SS spokes w/brass nipples, and Conti Gatorskin Hardshell 700X23 tires. Obviously these rims and tires are for general riding of the bike and not for loaded touring. I will have a second set of wheels built for touring. Should I be concerned about using the Chris King disc specific hubs when I have the touring wheels built?
Thanks for your thoughts/input on this situation.
Bill
PS - I have enjoyed cycling all my life but I have just decided to take up bicycle touring at the age of 65! Surely I am too old for touring but I will never know unless I give it a try!

      
#57: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Wed 19 Sep 2012 17:01 Edit Delete in reply to #56     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Should I be concerned about using the Chris King disc specific hubs when I have the touring wheels built?"

No.

It's not Chris King hubs per se that cause disc wheels to be weaker than non-disc wheels, it's the dishing of disc wheels that causes the weakness. Dishing a front wheel for a disc brake will obviously make it weaker than a normal wheel but front wheels are not power-transfer wheels so the front wheel can last a fairly long time even though it's dished (spokes shorter on one side than the other). On crazy modern bikes disc brakes and increases in the number of cassette cogs have generally pushed the hub flanges closer together. The closer the flanges are the weaker the wheel will be because the spokes are more upright on both sides. Tandems have wider hubs than single bikes so the flanges can be further apart, so the wheel will be stronger.

On some hubs the disc and non-disc versions have the same (or almost the same) center to flange distances. Each model of hub has it's own, sometimes unique, dimensions as far as dishing is concerned.

"Surely I am too old for touring but I will never know unless I give it a try!"

Surprisingly, old farts in their 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's (and even a few in their 90's) are ambulatory and bike-ulatory. I think cycletouring prolongs the lives of the old geezers. I know at least one who literally toured to death and had a great time doing it.

      
#58: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Emmet Farrell on Thu 20 Sep 2012 02:55 Edit Delete in reply to #54     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Import/export and taxes usually have a lot to do with this. It has in the past been a source of amusement to me that while Giro have a factory in Ireland making helmets, we cannot buy them direct from the factory, and all Giro helmets sold in Ireland are first exported to the UK, before being re-imported for sale.

Even more confusingly, we are unable to buy Gatorade powder here in Ireland, even though it is manufactured in a facility not too far from my home town!

      
#59: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By George White on Thu 20 Sep 2012 04:58 Edit Delete in reply to #56     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Hi Bill,

Nice bike!

To supplement David's reply - there are three standard rear hub widths:
130mm on road bikes - if you see a slo-mo replay of a road bike going round a corner on cobble the amount of side to side movement in the rear wheel is amazing. Also tend to use really low spoke counts.
135mm on mountain bikes and touring bikes - the wheel is more stable side to side and so stronger. Commonly 32 spokes on mountain bikes (not really enough in my opinion) and 36 on touring bikes.
140mm on tandems - even stronger - especially as most tandems use 40 or even 48 spokes.

I have enjoyed cycling all my life but I have just decided to take up bicycle touring at the age of 65! Surely I am too old for touring but I will never know unless I give it a try!

You're a mere youngster compared with Philip Gagnon, Jerry Witherspoon, Jerry Harp (the two Jerry's are currently on tour together) and a host of others on cgoab...

George

      
#60: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Thu 20 Sep 2012 05:41 Edit Delete in reply to #59     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
130mm on road bikes - ...
135mm on mountain bikes and touring bikes - ...
140mm on tandems - ...

...and not to be outdone, of course, 160mm on Santana tandems.

      
#61: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By George White on Thu 20 Sep 2012 07:01 Edit Delete in reply to #60     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Hi David,

...and not to be outdone, of course, 160mm on Santana tandems.

Oops! Yes - I missed out (forgot) the other standard tandem sizes, 145mm and 160mm. Especially as the commonest tandem rear dropout spacing seems to be 145mm.

George

      
#62: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Bill Williams on Thu 20 Sep 2012 15:55 Edit Delete in reply to #57     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
David,
Thanks for the answers to my questions regarding disc specific Chris King hubs and the inherent problems or issues created by the dishing of the wheel. I choose Chris King disc hubs and their over-sized headset and bottom bracket thinking they are high quality components. One persons experience does not result in a scientific analysis of any components reliability - however - a friend had a titanium touring bike (Litespeed) with over 20,000 miles on Chris King disc specific hubs including two USA transcontinental crossings self supported. I guess once I choose the Lynskey Backroad touring bike I had no option but to deal with disc brakes and the wheel strength compromises involved.
I checked your CGOAB profile and read the newspaper article about your ride across Canada. What a ride and an experience!

      
#63: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Bill Williams on Thu 20 Sep 2012 15:58 Edit Delete in reply to #59     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
George,

Thanks for your reply and information on rear hub widths!
I checked the CGOAB profiles on the three gentlemen still touring at an advanced age. Their cycling accomplishments are certainly inspiring.

Bill

      
#64: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Thu 20 Sep 2012 17:53 Edit Delete in reply to #62     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Bill, the Lynskey brothers are big guys in the world of titanium fabrication. You can rely on them. I would not worry about disc brakes. Disc brakes are somewhat of a matter of religion. If you were attempting to be the fastest 65-year-old in the Race Across America I would counsel against disc brakes. For touring there are no serious consequences to disc brakes and some people just like the whole mechanical zen of disc brakes, including Dave Wilson, who literally wrote the book on Bicycling Science (MIT Press, ISBN-13: 978-0-262-73154-6).

I have not yet given any Chris King products the 40,000 mile test so I cannot provide any reliable comments about the design or quality of manufacture of Chris King Bling. I am a type of machinist and I can say that Chris King does not seem to be spewing blarney about the products he manufactures. I only wish that he would take more of an interest in lowering the cost of exporting his products into foreign markets.

Thanks for being charitable about my Crazyguyonabike profile! There are so many journals on Crazyguyonabike that are a zillion times more interesting than my stultifying cross-country trips. By the way, the purpose of that trip was to get to an east coast airport so I could fly to Europe, cross North Africa and go South to Cape Agulhas (in South Africa). I was mesmerized by the adventures of Ian Hibbel who had managed to cross the desert by bicycle. The Government of Canada threatened to disown me as a citizen (which they later did anyway) and my connections in Sudan reported to me that their travel equipment had been severely damaged by machine-gun fire from bandits (even though they were firing back with automatic rifles). They recommended I avoid Sudan at the time. Of course things got much worse and as far as I know Ian Hibbel was the last known cyletourist on that route.

      
#65: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Thu 20 Sep 2012 18:09 Edit Delete in reply to #63     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Their cycling accomplishments are certainly inspiring."

That's nothing! In British Columbia we have 80-year-olds doing 1200 kilometer brevets!

      
#66: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Tom Walwyn on Sat 22 Sep 2012 02:48 Edit Delete in reply to #60     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
David

Difficult to know which 'threadette' to reply to....

1 - I rode 28000km mostly off-road on a Hope Pro2 36H rear disc hub (on a Surly Big Dummy) using Avid BB7 brakes and it did fine. (Velocity Cliffhanger rim, DT Comp spokes). The Hope Pro3 hubs have higher spec bearings so should be just fine. The current generation Pro2 (called Evo) have the same bearings as the Pro3.

Hope produce very nice stuff, and I'll continue to use it - only downside is that the freehub tends to be pretty noisy.

2 - You could go 170mm rear hub if you wanted (the latest fat-bike symmetrical, as opposed to off-set) standard). Hope do a rather nice 170mm rear (disc) hub.... (the Hope Pro2 Evo Fatsno). They also produce a 135mm front hub (Hope Pro2 Evo Fatsno 135mm front) that I've got on my newest bike - again disc, but with the additional width, still a reasonably strong build ;-)

3 - Wiggle and Chainreactioncycles.com are good places to buy stuff. Recommended.

Tom

      
#67: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 22 Sep 2012 08:06 Edit Delete in reply to #66     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Tom, I love your journal photos, except for this one, which gave me acrophobia:

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nearing the top of a nice dihedral (corner to the english/australians amongst us)

Image on journal page: Playing in Canmore - still not started riding yet in journal Banff to the bottomFeatured Journal #454 by Tom Walwyn (Completed Apr 2012)

"You could go 170mm rear hub"

I assume you have a new bike, because 170mm is 35mm wider than the dropouts on your Surly Big Dummy. It's possible to get a symmetrical (non-dished) rear wheel without going all the way to 170mm. For instance, the Co-Motion Americano (single touring bike) uses a 145mm rear tandem hub that results in a wheel that does not have to be dished, which is a really good idea on a touring bike if you ask me.

      
#68: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Tom Walwyn on Sat 22 Sep 2012 13:33 Edit Delete in reply to #67     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Dear David

I was being (a little) tongue-in-cheek with the 170mm suggestion - it is becoming increasingly used for 'fat-bikes' (tyres 26x3.7-4.8") in order to get the chain round the tyres.

I do have a new bike...

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Genesis as a desert-bike (Australian) - Canning Stock Route in 2013. Now, with a bit of trail-tour time, patently really quite good at quite a few other less than ideal surfaces (mud, soft grass, bog, pea gravel to name those encountered thus far).
Tyres are 26x4" 45N Husker Dus, built on 82mm wide Surly Rolling Darryl rims.


The rear triangle on this beast is actually offset to drive-side to allow full use of a cassette/derailleur drive-chain, but I'm running an IGH. The front hub is a symmetrical 135mm Hope hub.

I have an offset 135mm Hope Singlespeed hub with the same tyre and a slightly narrower rim (Surly Marge Light) planned for the trailer wheel.

This is all getting slightly off-topic.... (apologies)

Tom

PS - that was a great route - actually not very difficult (and in the picture you'll note I had a rope right above me!)

      
#69: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 22 Sep 2012 13:48 Edit Delete in reply to #68     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Canning Stock Route!? Yikes!!!

      
#70: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Tom Walwyn on Sat 22 Sep 2012 14:06 Edit Delete in reply to #69     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
David

Possibly, a bit 'Yikes'....

But definitely going to be the most amazing remote camping, and truly out-there riding experience :-)

We've got a couple of friends coming along (unless they change their minds) - Joe Cruz who rode his Pugsley with us in Peru and inspired us no end with fat-tyre possibilities and performance - and Scott Felter of Porcelain Rocket framebags etc.

Some pictures of the Welsh tracks and sog that can actually be fun with lots of rubber (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bicyclenomad/sets/72157631598150263/)

I suppose my original point, or contribution to the actual thread in question is that 36H rims/hubs worked fine with the increased dish from disc brakes for me - having 2 handbuilt and stress-relieved wheels probably helped (I broke one spoke - on the front wheel probably due to a faulty rim that Velocity replaced at their own cost). Sarah did just fine on standard MTB 32H rims/hubs with no spoke breakages at all (and she has a tendency to just ride in the direction she wants to go with little regard for how hard that will be on her bicycle :-)).

Looking forward to hearing about your next adventure, David...

Regards

Tom

      
#71: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Ron Fisher on Sun 7 Oct 2012 06:48 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
A while back I purchased a NOS 36° Deore XT 6 speed Uniglide cassette hub HB-M730.
I am planning on swapping a 7 speed Hyperglide cassette body onto it to use in building a new rear wheel.
How does this hub compare to the later XT hubs?
Is the original still the greatest?

      
#72: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sun 7 Oct 2012 08:20 Edit Delete in reply to #71     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Wow, that hub must be 25 years old! I don't know a thing about them except that they were similar to Ultegra hubs, which still use a similar hub body, which is very good. The M730 was undoubtedly more expensive to manufacture than modern XT hubs. I assume your M730 has 130mm road bike spacing like Ultegra.

      
#73: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Ron Fisher on Sun 7 Oct 2012 09:56 Edit Delete in reply to #72     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
130mm it is. However, I intend on using it in an old 126mm Cannondale ST frame, so the non-drive side spacer will be removed. The only wildcard at this time is the difference in length between the 6 speed Uniglide and 7 speed Hyperglide freehub bodies. It shouldn't be much.I can actually get a 7 speed cassette on the 6 speed body, but the threaded cog only has about half thickness of threads engaged.
I'm using a Bontrager Fairlane asymmetrical rim. That will compensate for the redish required by the removal of the spacer. It should be a strong wheel, 36° 4 X spoke pattern.
Otherwise I'll use my existing Ultegra 6500 hub and swap out the cassette body with the 7sp Hyperglide and use 8 cassettes of a 9 speed cluster.

      
#74: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 13 Oct 2012 20:30 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
After weeks and weeks of waiting in vain for the DT Swiss spokes to arrive on the boat from Switzerland or Kuala Lumpur or wherever they come from, I finally gave up on DT and purchased some Sapim Race (2.0mm - 1.8mm - 2.0mm) spokes to build up the Conspiracy Wheel. The Sapim spokes are the same price ($50 for 40, with nipples) as the DT Competition spokes I normally use.

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Wheelbuilding Ingredients

Park truing stand and dishing tool, Park spoke wrench, nipple screwdriver, Sapim Race spokes and Sapim brass nipples, Mavic 36 hole A719 rim, Chris King Classic 36 hole rear 135mm hub and Schwalbe 22mm (22-622) rim tape.

Spoke Sizes

Calculations by a professional wheelbuilder and myself indicated 288mm spokes on the drive side and 290mm spokes on the non-drive side. Well, sometimes there's only one way to find out what the correct spoke size actually is and that is to build the wheel. The correct size spokes for this apparently rare hub and rim combination are 286mm on the drive side and 290mm on the non-drive side (3 cross).


The different sized flanges of the Chris King hub probably make it a very strong hub but they do nothing to enhance wheelbuilding pleasure.

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Wheelbuilding Cookbook

If you have not built a wheel before, The Art of Wheelbuilding by Gerd Schraner (Buonpane Publications, Denver, Colorado) is a good way to get started. Schraner's book covers basic wheelbuilding topics, it has cookbook-style spoke lacing instructions and a wire binding that makes it easy to lay the pages out where you need to see them.

The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt (Avocet Inc, Palo Alto, California) also has wheelbuilding instructions and goes into great detail about the structure of the bicycle wheel.


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The Finished Wheel

Instead of having their logo on the head of the spoke (like DT and Wheelsmith), Sapim stylishly stamps their name into the body of the spoke. The Sapim spoke has a very abrupt (and clearly visible) transition at the butted section of the spoke, unlike the gradual transition on the DT spoke, for instance.

Show links to this pic


The Mavic A719 rim is one of the nicest rims for ease of wheelbuilding.

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Mavic A719 Double Eyelet

The double eyelet makes A719's very nice to build and undoubtedly contributes to their longevity. Note that the spoke is long enough to have adequate engagement of the nipple threads but it does not extend unnecessarily into the screwdriver slot.

      
#75: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Lee Vilinsky on Sun 14 Oct 2012 21:16 Edit Delete in reply to #74     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Very nice build, David.

On a somewhat related note...what about the 40 spoke conspiracy? Are 40 spokes just plain old unnecessary on a single bike? I'm thinking of tourists in remote areas that have the most god-awful road conditions imaginable. I'm actually contemplating building a 26" wheelset with 40 spokes, but there are hardly any rims or hubs to be found with that drilling in a 135mm spacing.

I may just get Arvon Stacey to build me some hubs from scratch. Here's the 48-spoke conspiracy:

http://www.sandsmachine.com/a_arv_001.htm


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