crazyguyonabike 
Topic: Bicycle Touring [change]
About  Help  FAQ  Sitemap  Options  Sponsors  Donate 

  Schwalbe Quality INNERTUBES
15% OFF four-or-more!
www.wallbike.com
  
  BIKEWIPZ individually wrapped cleaning wipes - Clean, polish, protect frame and components. Mobile! Save weight and space on tour
www.bikewipz.com
  
  One-stop Resource for Bike Tours Worldwide - Representing local overseas bike tour companies with 400+ tours in 70 countries. From $700.
www.biketours.com
  
  Europe Bike Tours & Barge Bike Tours - Family operated & online since 1999, we offer personally vetted bike tours all over Europe and Asia.
www.tripsite.com
  

 Home  My  Journals*  Articles*  Forums*   Reviews*  Resources*  Classifieds*  Serendipity  Ratings*  Directory  Search  Website
 Post  Polls

First Prev Next Last (page 1 of 5) Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5

Forum: Wheels & Tires

Rims, hubs, spokes, problems, punctures, repairs

View thread: Chronological Nested
    
View forum: Messages Threads

#1: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 15 Sep 2012 19:11 (US/Pacific) Edit Delete   Reply (19)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Self-appointed experts and liars will tell you that 32 spokes are enough for touring. Unless you are an elf on a credit card tour, 32 spokes are not enough, especially on the rear wheel.

Shimano has ceased production of non-disc 36 hole Deore XT hubs that were popular for touring. Good luck finding another inexpensive 36 hole hub fit for touring. You could use an (inferior) plain Deore 36 hole hub, if you could find one. You could use an XT hub designed for disc brakes but the flange distance on disc hubs is not optimal for wheel strength and disc hubs are heavier. Bike shops don't stock the 36 hole versions anyway. Disc brakes are for mountain bikes and mountain bikers don't use 36 spoke wheels.

Relation | Bookmark | Edit | | Report | Link
Click here for a larger version of the picture

Rare Mavic A719 36 hole 700C touring rim.

Photo taken by my Panasonic LX-3 camera on top of my red tool cabinet.

Forum pic: Re: Mavic A719 Rims for 700c by David Cambon on Sun 9 Sep 2012 13:53 (US/Pacific)

I scoured the globe in search of old-stock 36 hole XT non-disc hubs and I came up with nothing. Determined not to let the forces of bike industry mediocrity defeat cycletourists, I went to the King of Bike Bling Chris King for the Most Expensive Cycletouring Hub On Earth. The Chris King hub is seven times the cost of an XT hub but the Chris King hub has 36 holes and it is not compromised by being designed for disc brakes.

Relation | Bookmark | Edit | | Report | Link
Click here for a larger version of the picture

Product#: HBCR36B1BS Chris King Classic 36 hole rear hub, steel drive shell, 130mm axle retrofitted with a 135mm (interchangeable) Chris King axle.

Photo taken outdoors in bright sunlight by my Panasonic LX-3 camera in JPEG HDR on a piece of drawer liner from my tool cabinet. The hub is actually black. The blue colour is from the sky. I used ultra-garish HDR (Photomatix) to show detail, otherwise the hub would look like a black blob.

I already own Phil Wood hubs and they are occupied in touring wheels. I have not tried the White Industries 36 hole 135mm hub or the Velo Orange Grand Cru 36 hole 135mm hub.

My touring wheel shopping experience left my bicycling soul crushed by the overbearing weight of the lowest common denominator of bike purchaser that the corporate bike industry caters to with their cynical and less-than-functional products that appeal to people who don't use bikes for transportation. I had to search far and wide to find a 36 hole Mavic A719 touring rim. Obtaining the King of Bling 36 hole hub was a major ordeal. Bike shops don't carry it and it had to specially imported at a cost of almost $500 landed in Canada. I could not find a bike shop with the right size spokes and the spokes had to be specially ordered. Bike shops don't seem to carry spokes now that there are semi-adequate pre-built wheels available. The process of obtaining the 36 spoke wheel parts is taking weeks and weeks and is a colossal waste of time. I am still waiting for the spokes to arrive from the Canadian distributor. Who knows, they may never show up, so I am publishing this forum post before the wheels are built!

I use DT Competition double-butted spokes (2.0mm at the ends and 1.8mm in the middle, also known as 14/15/14 gauge). Calculations indicate the spokes on this (3-cross) wheel should be 288mm long on the drive side and 290mm long on the non-drive side. I could not find anyone who had built a wheel like the one I am building so the spoke length could be wrong and I'll have to start all over again. I use black (anodized) spokes because they don't show dirt. Silver spokes are just as good. I use DT spokes because that is what the bike shops around me carry. Wheelsmith spokes would also be fine. Wheelsmith makes a 2.0mm-1.7mm-2.0mm spoke to compete with the DT Competition spoke. Sapim makes a 2.0mm-1.8mm-2.0mm spoke (called the Race) that has the same dimensions as the DT Competition spoke but the transition zone of the butt on the Sapim is much more abrupt (not tapered like the DT Competition). The Sapim Race and the DT Competition spokes are the same price.

I could have used stronger DT Alpine III spokes because Chris King hubs have 2.5mm holes and Alpine III's are 2.3mm but the Alpine III's are apparently a tight fit and will probably form channels in the hub holes that will require using more Alpine III's on subsequent wheel rebuilds (DT Competitions might be too skinny to take up the space enlarged by the Alpine III's). Alpine III spokes are better for touring. The Alpine III's are triple butted so they are extra-thick in the high-stress area at the elbow (2.3mm at the elbow, 1.8mm in the middle and 2.0mm at the threaded end).

For this wheel I will use standard length (12mm) brass nipples (actually nickel-plated brass). Do not use aluminum (also known as "alloy") nipples on touring wheels.

For the reason I use butted spokes see:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=126597

Butted spokes apparently last longer than straight-gauge spokes despite what bike shop racerboy attitude championship winners may say.

Costs:

Rim: $95
Hub: $470
Spokes and nipples with 4 spares: Cost unknown so far.
Schwalbe rim tape: I may use Velox cloth rim tape if I can't find the blue Schwalbe plastic rim tape.
Shimano XT skewer: $20
Chris King hub service tool: $170 ( I did not buy it yet - I would like to get the wheel built first!).

My objective is to build a single rear 36 spoke touring wheel for less than the cost of an entire Surly Long Haul Trucker touring bike. I will teach the bike industry who is boss!

This 32 spoke wheel did not last as long as the 36 spoke version:

Relation | Bookmark | Edit | | Report | Link
Click here for a larger version of the picture

The 700c x 28mm Continental Ultra-Gatorskin tire and Mavic A719 rim I used on this trip. Yes, I know I should not be using 32 spoke wheels for touring, especially with so much weight. I could not get any 36 hole A719 rims or 36 hole hubs in Vancouver when I built this wheel a few days before leaving for Inuvik.

Image on journal page: Equipment in journal Dempster Highway to the ArcticFeatured Journal #360 by David Cambon (Completed Sep 2009)

      
#2: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sat 15 Sep 2012 19:33 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
This is interesting David. I will have to change my will and last testament again and add my XT 36 hole hubs to the growing list of out-of-production bike parts which I will be passing on to my increasingly incredulous children.

I see that Thorn (from whom I bought my hubs) now say on their site...

"If you want and can afford, to have some really special wheels built, we recommend that you use Hope Pro 3 hubs. These have proven themselves to be very strong, with exceptionally good bearings. You can choose Hope Pro3 hubs in silver, black or red."

Could be another lead for you.

Neil might note the reference to colour as an aid to decision making.

      
#3: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 15 Sep 2012 20:21 Edit Delete in reply to #2     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Reading the Thorn website always hurts my brain because those guys use a million hyperboles. Thorn customers should be shocked to learn that their touring wheels can have a cheap 'ol plain Deore 36 hole hub or the expensive boutique Hope Pro 3 hub but nothing in-between (thank-you Shimano for hating the guts of cycletourists by discontinuing 36 hole XT non-disc hubs). Even the Surly Long Haul Trucker no longer has XT hubs.

Hopefully someone using the Hope Pro 3 hub will read this thread and report on their experience.

      
#4: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sat 15 Sep 2012 21:11 Edit Delete in reply to #3     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Wiggle have a solid listing of the Hope Pro 3 David. Some are even in-stock.

They don't seem to be exceedingly expensive. Not that I have done any real comparison as I won't have to buy more hubs until I am 86 years old.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/hope-pro3-mono-road-rear-hub/

      
#5: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 15 Sep 2012 21:33 Edit Delete in reply to #4     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
The Hope Pro 3 is substantially cheaper bling than the Chris King bling. Wiggle seems to be selling the Hope hub with an aluminum cassette body. You need a steel cassette body for touring and steel cassette bodies cost more to machine than aluminum cassette bodies so presumably the Hope hub with a steel cassette body would be more expensive.

I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable buying a hub named Hope from a company named Wiggle.

      
#6: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Justin QUINN on Sat 15 Sep 2012 21:38 Edit Delete in reply to #5     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
St John St Cycles in the UK are offering non disc 10 speed XT silver 36h hubs for 40 quid.
Model: Shimano Deore XT FH-T780 and will take 8, 9 or 10 speed cassettes.

      
#7: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sat 15 Sep 2012 22:38 Edit Delete in reply to #5     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
When you work it all out and eventually triumph over the conspiracy with faith, charity and perhaps hope, be sure to post the best hub solution for us to use David.

My undisputed champion hubs are Durace Superbs which I've had running almost continuously since 1980 on my old Falcon tourer/commuter. They are freaks of engineering excellence. No new hope, kings or shims will ever be as good.

      
#8: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Max Carter on Sat 15 Sep 2012 23:05 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Don't XT hubs have aluminum axles and smaller ball bearings these days? Maybe LX hubs are a better bet for touring?

And I'll probably won't win any friends by saying this, but Phil Wood hubs don't have a great reliability record either. There's a couple of failures documented here: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=275686

      
#9: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sat 15 Sep 2012 23:10 Edit Delete in reply to #7     Reply (3)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
These days you don't have to get Dura Ace to get a decent road bike hub from Shimano. The Shimano Ultegra hub seems to be very good, it's inexpensive ($150) and it's available with 36 holes. I swear the Ultegra hubs roll noticeably better than XT. Unfortunately the Ultegra hubs are only available in 130mm (and not the 135mm axle width commonly found on touring bikes).

Relation | Bookmark | Edit | | Report | Link
Click here for a larger version of the picture

32 hole Shimano Ultegra hub residing in a 20" (406) recumbent wheel with Wheelsmith spokes. The Velocity Aeroheat rim is awesome for 20" wheels.

      
#10: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Justin QUINN on Sun 16 Sep 2012 01:23 Edit Delete in reply to #9     Reply (2)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
I agree. Something to consider when buying hubs is the cost of replacement parts. Ultegra freehub bodies are a reasonable price when seeking a replacement. While I like my DA hubs, the 36H 7700 rear freehub body packed up this year. Being Ti it is frightfully expensive to replace so I bought a 7900 rear hub instead at a similar price and rebuilt the wheel.

Btw is it possible to source a longer axle and use some spacers to make an Ultegra 130 hub fit a 135mm rear?

      
#11: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By iain c on Sun 16 Sep 2012 01:45 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Seems XT hubs are still in stock at Spa Cycles.

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s117p1464

      
#12: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sun 16 Sep 2012 02:29 Edit Delete in reply to #9     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"I swear the Ultegra hubs roll noticeably better than XT"
If they are anything like my vintage Durace hubs David, I am sure they would roll better because the Durace hubs, even though they are 32 years old roll noticeably better than my much newer XT hubs.

My bike mechanic friend shakes his head in awe at the quality and durability of the venerable Durace hubs. Bearings and cones have worn out many times but the hubs just keep rolling beautifully.

I had a vague impression, possibly not based on any facts whatsoever, that Ultegra hubs, though excellent rollers, are not as durable as their slightly more sluggish XT cousin. Somewhere I'd heard or read that Ultegras are less work to push along than XTs, but they do not last the distance under touring conditions. Could be another one of those myths though.

That said, I am very pleased with my XT hubs. Having recently replaced the leaden Marathon XR tyres with leaner Marathon Supreme tyres has allowed the XT hubs to show off some of their low frictioness.

      
#13: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sun 16 Sep 2012 02:33 Edit Delete in reply to #6     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"St John St Cycles in the UK are offering non disc 10 speed XT silver 36h hubs for 40 quid.
Model: Shimano Deore XT FH-T780 and will take 8, 9 or 10 speed cassettes."

Interesting they aren't putting them on their Thorn bikes Justin. Must be run-out stock.

      
#14: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Mike Ayling on Sun 16 Sep 2012 02:54 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
David wrote:

Self-appointed experts and liars will tell you that 32 spokes are enough for touring. Unless you are an elf on a credit card tour, 32 spokes are not enough, especially on the rear wheel.

The Rohloff people believe that 32 spokes are adequate for a non-dished wheel!
Said wheel will cost the same or slightly more than a LHT however.

Mike

      
#15: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By iain c on Sun 16 Sep 2012 04:42 Edit Delete in reply to #12     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Somewhere I'd heard or read that Ultegras are less work to push along than XTs, but they do not last the distance under touring conditions. Could be another one of those myths though.

I'd be amazed if any difference in friction between different hubs could be measured in touring conditions. After all when a dynohub starts generating 3W or so most people don't notice it. The biggest losses of energy are IMO wind resistance and tyre rolling resistance. Compared to them hub friction will be negligible.

A quick google suggests hub bearing friction losses are around 100 times less than tyre friction losses. I'm not going to worry about it.

typical tire rolling resistance coefficient is about .005… so the bearing resistance is ~100 times smaller.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-blog/updates-and-news/2012-hub-review-information-overload.html

      
#16: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sun 16 Sep 2012 06:44 Edit Delete in reply to #10     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Btw is it possible to source a longer axle and use some spacers to make an Ultegra 130 hub fit a 135mm rear?"

Apparently there is a dark alley source for spacers in Tajikistan or somewhere. However, bike mechanics seem to agree that spacers introduce forces that cause expensive havoc like dropout destruction and so on.

      
#17: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sun 16 Sep 2012 07:20 Edit Delete in reply to #6     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"St John St Cycles in the UK are offering non disc 10 speed XT silver 36h hubs for 40 quid."

That's interesting that there are a couple of bike shops in the UK advertising the non-disc 36 hole XT hub. I would advise cycletourists to purchase them if they can. Supposedly those hubs (the XT 770 and 780) went out of production several years ago. There are internet dealers in the USA that have the same hub in their web catalogs but if you actually try to order it nothing will show up because they ran out of stock long ago. A cynic might suspect they are leaving the non-disc 36 hole XT hub in their catalogs to lure desperate cycletourists to their catalogs to purchase other products they actually do have in stock. I think there are a lot of people looking for those old XT hubs.

Relation | Bookmark | Edit | | Report | Link
Click here for a larger version of the picture

Old Shimano stock photo of the non-disc 36 hole XT hub so adored by cycletourists.

      
#18: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Chris Murray on Sun 16 Sep 2012 07:48 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
If it makes you feel better, I have seen a few king hubs with close to 10k miles on them still running great, even when they choose to hardly do any maintenance on them. My hubs are only closer to 2-3k miles but that is pretty hard mountain biking and they have been great.

With that said, I have seen some great work from hope hubs and also White Industries but never the cassette WI hubs, always their SS hub with their freewheel that is known for being nearly indestructible so I would imagine their cassette hub is similar.

      
#19: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Bruno Waggershauser on Sun 16 Sep 2012 08:56 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
hi David,
it is interesting to read about the 36 spokes. for me 32 spokes won't work either.
i still break a spoke sometimes even with my 36 setup.
however, i am not much of an expert and not a bicycle mechanic either. me and my wife are new to bicycle touring. after about 10 000 miles in foreign countries we are learning a lot from other people.
we are riding Koga bicycles. they are from Holland and come fully equipped. the touring versions come with 36 spokes naturally. i don't know which brand the hubs are, but ours don't have discbrakes. maybe this leads you somewhere....
best wishes

Bruno

      
#20: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Neil Gunton (admin) on Sun 16 Sep 2012 09:02 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Shimano has ceased production of non-disc 36 hole Deore XT hubs that were popular for touring."

Anybody know why they would do this? Was there any rationale posted in a news release or other story online (if so, then link please)? Or is it simply some kind of cost cutting measure? Just seems a little weird, that's all... there must be some reason for it.

Thanks,

Neil

      
#21: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sun 16 Sep 2012 09:55 Edit Delete in reply to #19     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Bruno, on a single bike with 36 spokes you should not be breaking spokes. The spokes may be breaking because of the quality of wheel construction. Wheels that are built entirely by a machine tend to have a short life. Wheels that are properly constructed by a human will last until the braking surface of the rim wears through. A well-constructed 36 spoke wheel with good parts will not break spokes.

Relation | Bookmark | Edit | | Report | Link
Click here for a larger version of the picture

This rim braking surface has worn right through, after 20,000 kilometers, however, the wheel is still perfectly true and has never broken a spoke.

Note: Only an idiot would let this happen. I got stranded out in the middle of nowhere because of this breakthrough.

      
#22: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sun 16 Sep 2012 14:37 Edit Delete in reply to #15     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"hub bearing friction losses are around 100 times less than tyre friction losses."

True Iain but I like my hubs to pass the traditional test of the valve edge of the rim gently rolling under its own weight to the bottom when the bike is on the rack. I'm so used to the feel of very good hubs that I can detect (when riding) if hubs aren't up to scratch. I'd categorise XT hubs as 'solid performers' rather than exceptional hubs.

Other than the quality of the hub, the frequency and quality of maintenance makes a noticeable difference, especially on the older types of excellent hubs like my Durace.

I haven't used the XTs long enough to form an opinion yet on the durability and maintainability of these sealed types of hubs. Others say they are excellent.

      
#23: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By George White on Sun 16 Sep 2012 15:50 Edit Delete in reply to #1     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
Hi David,

I scoured the globe in search of old-stock 36 hole XT non-disc hubs and I came up with nothing.

Harris Cyclery are still listing them...

Does this mean I should remove the 36 hole Deore XT laced to a Mavic A719 from my hybrid and lock it in a vault for the future? What about the 36 hole A719 laced to a Tiagra LX hub in the front?

btw, anyone know the difference between the Shimano Taigra LX and Deore LX front hubs?

I also want an equivalent to the A719 in 26" (ISO 559). In the Mavic range the XC717 and the XM719 both have single eyelets rather than the double eyelets of the A719 and A319.

From the Wiggle site I get the impression that Shimano are pushing their "centre lock" hubs (ie the Deore 585) as suitable for rim brake use...
What a pain for those of us who just want a basic, good quality, rim brake hub.

George

      
#24: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By David Cambon on Sun 16 Sep 2012 16:26 Edit Delete in reply to #23     Reply (1)   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Harris Cyclery are still listing them..."

Alas, they are actually out of stock, although I become very nostalgic at the mere mention of Harris Cyclery. I reminisce about wonderfully enlightening conversation with the late Sheldon Brown.

"Does this mean I should remove the 36 hole Deore XT laced to a Mavic A719 from my hybrid and lock it in a vault for the future?"

Perhaps. That is a personal choice. I would use your 36 hole Deore XT hub to form an angry mob of cyletourists with pitchforks and torches to ride somewhere to burn something down.

      
#25: Re: 36 Spoke Wheel Conspiracy (thread)
By Graham Smith on Sun 16 Sep 2012 17:44 Edit Delete in reply to #11     Reply   Printable Relation | Link | Bookmark | Report
"Seems XT hubs are still in stock at Spa Cycles.
http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s117p1464"

Spa also offer Royce hubs in their top line wheels. Another brand I had not heard of until this thread.
I'll keep a mental note of Royce Hubs until I win the lottery.
Spa look to have an excellent range of wheels for cycle tourists or at least their bikes.


First Prev Next Last (page 1 of 5) Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5


Website Copyright © 2000-2014 by Neil Gunton Fri 31 Oct 2014 03:31 (US/Pacific) (0.305s)      Top    Link    Report    Terms of Service